to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

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csn7203
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:34 am

to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by csn7203 »

Good afternoon all,

We recently have changed ink vendors from Wikoff to INX. We have been cutting inks for sometime and now my VP of ops wants to run full strength ink and purchase new anilox rolls to hit densities. I am looking for some experienced advise on this. My anilox supplier wants us to run full strength but then im sure my $20k anilox order has something to do with that.
Also does anyone have experience with Daetwyler for anilox rolls? Harper is our current vendor but there is a big savings with Daetwyler. Thanks for reading and any info.
longtimefan
Posts: 430
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:10 pm

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by longtimefan »

Those blades never gave me an issue.

I am using inx now...they only issue I have is their white. My company goes the cheap route and the white balls up and leaves chunk all over.

Maybe get a hold of bobbi and Dan at team flexo..might be able to help better?
Gory
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:08 am

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by Gory »

If I understand the question correctly, you are used to adding extender (varnish, unpigmented ink) to your inks in order to achieve densities, but your VP Ops wants you to run process inks 'straight from the bucket' by re-tooling your aniloxes to suit the inks?

If that is the case I would recommend against it - it gives you absolutely zero latitude to compensate for dirty or worn aniloxes, you may achieve density on the first couple of jobs, but as your aniloxes wear you will be fighting a losing battle and calling your ink vendor for stronger inks every few weeks, and replacing aniloxes which would otherwise be perfectly serviceable on a much too frequent basis.

My suggestion would be to extend the inks by 20% and get aniloxes that achieve your targets using that ink. The downside to this is that you have to extend the inks, which takes time and extender costs money - the upside is that the aniloxes are capable of achieving density when worn but still serviceable.

Your VP Ops may not be seeing the 'big picture', just looking at simplifying set up by having ink they can pour into the sump, pull up print and run. I can see how that might be attractive but in my opinion the reasons I list outweigh any advantage to the proposed change.

Give it a day or two, other members may have other opinions. When you have as much input from here as you are comfortable with to form a decision approach the VP with your reasoning and propose whichever solution seems most practical to you, hopefully it will open a discourse where the best solution for your particular business situation can be arrived at.

Full disclosure - I'm an ink guy. 3 decades in. I have worked from labs to in-plants and a lot of tech service, If I had a dollar for every time a customer said they had strength issues with ink, only to find aniloxes so dirty or worn the could barely carry any ink I would have been able to retire by now.

Best Regards -
csn7203
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:34 am

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by csn7203 »

Thanks for the replies. A final decision is probably 2 weeks out or so. Im hopeful i can convince him otherwise. I guess i never thought about the anilox issues you pointed out. I was thinking more along the lines if we needed a little more red or something and i was already running full strength ink then i would have no where else to go besides an anilox drop and that may be too much?
Ill wait for more replies and then harass my VP some more.
iteachflexo
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:20 am

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by iteachflexo »

Alway try and run your inks full strength. That way, you can run the order again and again and produce the same color. If you are investing in new aniloxes, the key is anilox volume. If you are not sure what volume to run on the anilox, see if the anilox manufacturer has a banded anilox roll so that you can run test to determine best anilox line and volume for your press. Once your get the new aniloxes, fingerprint the press. Also, invest in an anilox cleaning machine.
csn7203
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:34 am

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by csn7203 »

Thanks for that reply. We have ran a banded roll to find our bcms. I believe our cy and magenta will be a1000 cpi 1.3 and blk and Yellow a 1.5. I was hoping to have all 4cp hit within the same volume. Im not opposed to running full strength but what do you do when you need a little more red and dropping to an 800 line might be too much? I will have no where to go because we want our anilox rolls to be fairly standardized. I want my operators to be able to grab an anilox and just go. I dont want alot of searching for the correct bcm anilox.
wdustin1
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:54 pm

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by wdustin1 »

Hello! We used to cut our inks back as well for years, i always hated that method. When i became supervisor on the floor the very first thing we did is got rid of cutting inks and only using full strength inks and using aniloxes and fingerprinting to control the density's. The operators are much happier and we spend much less time dumping inks to put in weak inks then go back to a stronger one. We switched to Apex GTT aniloxes, they have a ink channels instead of the traditional hex cut. Now these aniloxes, you either LOVE them or HATE them i have never seen it any other way. As for our shop we love them and would recommend them to anybody. We do fingerprints at least once a year to keep targets, operators grab the job look at what aniloxes to use, there is no BCM's just X-small, small, medium, large etc. the put the aniloxes in not worrying about the ink strength and we are off and running. I would have to throw in a vote for your VP's plan! sorry haha
Fuzz
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:37 pm

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by Fuzz »

Addressing your concern with dropping from a 1000 line to an 800. Remember volume, not line count can be the deciding factor. So, how about sticking with a 1000 line, but a little larger volume. Yeah, I know, need to make certain all the ink comes out of a deeper cell, but, anilox engravers do a real nice job these days.
lavoie
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 12:44 am

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by lavoie »

I would recommend that you have your ink, anilox and plate (graphics) vendors all working together on this issue. Consistency is key. These folks work for you. Hold them to their agreed standards. It will also be beneficial to have your press operators involved in the discussion. Put in place a standard operating condition that the operators cannot deviate from. Too often operators will try to save time by leaving in anilox from a previous run and adjusting inks.

On a side note, I always found it funny that OPs managers want pristine anilox for every fingerprint. Though this is ideal, if you are not cleaning them for every job you run, it will be hard to duplicate the results of the fingerprint on a job to job basis. If you have the anilox, man power and equipment, routine cleaning of anilox is always a benefit.
iteachflexo
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:20 am

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by iteachflexo »

Here is a procedure we used to maintain consistent four color process. On a very new order, once the printed sample was matched to the customer signed proof, we would run progressives and keep it with the work order. (Progressives meaning printing one process color at a time) When the order needs to be run again and you have a slight color variation, the progressive will help determine what direction to go.

If you are having problems matching a customer approved proof and need a stronger process color, contact your ink manufacturer. We used Sigewerk who carry 3 different strengths of process inks. Do not under any circumstance have your press operators use process blue instead of cyan or rubine red instead of magenta to strengthen the color. It does not work and a waste of time and money.
csn7203
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:34 am

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by csn7203 »

Thanks again for these great replies. We will more than likely be going to full strength ink and getting in new anilox rolls with the appropriate bcm. And lets say if i need something a little more red we will drop the anilox to a higher volume anilox roll. We try to keep our anilox rolls consistent in regards to volume so my 1000 lines are or were around 1.8, 800 2.0 so on and so forth.
We have had several meetings with ink vendor, anilox vendor and everyone is helpful and on same page so it is working out pretty well so far.
longtimefan
Posts: 430
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:10 pm

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by longtimefan »

1000 at 1.8?

Normally see those 2.0 and 800 at 2.4
Fuzz
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:37 pm

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by Fuzz »

1000 @ 1.8 BCM? Wow, that seems really large for a 1000. We have ours engraved in the 1.3 to 1.4 no problem hitting density. If you did that you could then, go up to 1.8 if needed.
csn7203
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:34 am

Re: to reduce 4cp or run full strength?

Post by csn7203 »

Im sure everyones press room is setup differently. Things were setup before i took over and if we run full strength inks our volumes will be even lower 1.1-1.3 for our 1000 line rolls. This project has the eyes of our anilox and ink vendors along with dr. blades as well. That is my intention Fuzz to keep one or two of the 1.8s.
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